News reports in western media outlets project this aircraft not very superior if not junk
西媒的新闻报道不是将这架飞机描述成无敌，就是说成垃圾。
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India and china
印度和中国
by SREENIVAS (View MyPage) on Jan 12, 2011 04:30 PM | Hide replies
in our own intrest we should not treat try to compete with china but let us try to forge frienship with china making them to understand we both the countries join gogether then the terrorism problem we are facing(which is also a main worry in china)can be effectively contained
by ashambani (View MyPage) on Jan 12, 2011 04:49 PM
true
没错
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Re: India and china
回复：印度和中国
by Vivek Harry (View MyPage) on Jan 12, 2011 04:35 PM
friendship canbe thereonly amongequals
只有平等的伙伴间才有友谊。
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Re: Re: India and china
回复：回复：印度和中国
by ashambani (View MyPage) on Jan 12, 2011 04:49 PM
also true
也没错
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nothing to worry
没什么可担心的
by virat agarwal (View MyPage) on Jan 12, 2011 04:29 PM | Hide replies
under the inspiring leadership of Kangress, sonia, Rahul India can certainly beat China in Scams, corruption, mismanagment etc Dragon does not even stand in front of us...lol
by D goel (View MyPage) on Jan 12, 2011 04:26 PM | Hide replies
D. Goel Pkl. afternoon 4.30pm Wednesday, Jan 12, 2011.
While the disquiet in strategic circles from Japan philippines Indonesia or even USA is understandably in cautious Low key, there is I am sure Panikcin circles of cognoscenti who see China as a constant Northern threat to most India.We seem to bweneverin rivalry with the dragon, and our Elephant is lethargic splendour embodied. Tejas a middlerange Aircfaft touted as the Standard Bearer of india's quest of self-Reliance in strategic-Aircrafts is nowhere near induction in our Vayu Sena, for several yrs on end.
We can make only Marutis by inducting Design and engine casts from Japanese Principal..Suzuki.We are lacking vision and perseverance , and at best master scams and do copy-cat jobs, badly.D. Goel
by ashambani (View MyPage) on Jan 12, 2011 04:51 PM
We lack political will and initiative
回复楼上：
我们缺乏政治意愿和主动性。
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who cares.. next india will develop it
谁关心啊。。下面印度将会研制出它
by dhruv kumar (View MyPage) on Jan 12, 2011 04:15 PM | Hide replies
yesterday US, today China, tomorrow India will develop it.
Anyways new developers always have a feature like stealth. china is targeting only US
昨天是美国，今天是中国，明天，则是印度将会研制出它。
总会有新研发者的，总会有类似隐形这种特征的。中国只是以美国为目标而已。
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Re: who cares.. next india will develop it
by Raj (View MyPage) on Jan 12, 2011 04:19 PM
well its easier said then done
回楼上：
说起来容易做起来难。
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Re: Re: who cares.. next india will develop it
by dhruv kumar (View MyPage) on Jan 12, 2011 04:21 PM
eventually everyone will have it, like nuclear bomb
回楼上：
最终，每个人都会拥有的，就像核弹。
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Re: who cares.. next india will develop it
by ashok kumar (View MyPage) on Jan 12, 2011 04:43 PM
Sure, but currently we are struggling with MIG's that take some few Air Force pilots life every year.
回：谁关心啊。。下面印度将会研制出它
当然，可目前我们还挣扎在那些每年杀死一些空军飞行员的米格中。
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no concern by congi govt
by gaurang patel (View MyPage) on Jan 12, 2011 04:54 PM | Hide replies
国大党政府才不关心呢
while our congi. govt. can hardly control inflation or prices of onions, sugar we cannot expect them to counter this kind of military upgradation from china. they will only indulge in looting public money as they will soon complete 10 yrs. & after 10 yrs its history of india to change govt. so the congi guys are still denying any tresspassing by china into borders the civilians have already confirmed chinese men entering our territory & stopping construction work. so far govt. is busy hiding out the truth & the day is not far when china would again take bigger part of india. our congi govt still would say that they were busy controlling inflation & their dirty internal politics.
This stealth fighter is not the most advanced one.
by kao (View MyPage) on Jan 12, 2011 04:52 PM | Hide replies
这个隐形飞机不是最先进的
I am a Chinese and new here, HI to all rediff friends. Truely, the test flight fulfilled the aspiration of many Chinese nationalists and patriotic，as well as being use as a propaganda tool by CCP; but I have no idea why it is hyped as the most advanced one. Donno what kind of reference the writer quoted and how well you guys here know about aircraft technology, this fighter has been designed for defence, one may find the evidence from engine power or aerodynamic design.
LAC have also made its first flight,lucky day for both India and China.
Hats off to all engineers and designers, they deserve it.
Re: This stealth fighter is not the most advanced one.
by sree harsha (View MyPage) on Jan 12, 2011 04:58 PM
回复：这个隐形飞机不是最先进的
This is not the world's most advanced fighter jet. This is termed as a 4th generation fighter jet. the US already has operational F22 fighters (Not development). The US (Jointly with NATO) is already developing its 5th generation fighter F35. India and Russia jointly are developing 4th generation fighter plane Sukhoi-PAK...
by Bharat Bhooshan (View MyPage) on Jan 12, 2011 04:52 PM | Hide replies
没必要
Many people can own a formula one cars; but it is only Schumaker how can use it optimally. Meaning it doesn't matter how advanced your air craft is unless you know how to use it optimally and Indian fighter pilots are best.
by mohammed ulhaq (View MyPage) on Jan 12, 2011 05:07 PM
回复：没必要
Keep saying 'aal is well' and you will get the kick on your butt.
接着说“aal很好”然后你就会被踢出去。
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by Rohan Kapoor (View MyPage) on Jan 12, 2011 04:50 PM
If there is some shame left in Indian corrupt politicians and they feel they r the major cause behind country\'s bad health they must bring their black money back and spend it on defence sector in the way to overcome china otherwise this dragon is going to eat us.
by aniketh MG (View MyPage) on Jan 12, 2011 04:48 PM
还有很长的路要走
the articles claims that F-35 is inferior compared to the J-20. that is absurd. The f-22 itself is superior to J-20 and the F-35, is much better than F-22. so can place ur bets on which is superior. India and Russia are working on a Sukhoi stealth as well. China has a long way to go before it can actually develop a true stealth. the only matter of concern is that china can manufacture these planes fast and at less prices. Six years to be in active service.. only attests some stealth flaws
for my nation security every small thing is important i dont know why govt has close eyes toward china why they are sleeping
why we are lacking against china and if the ratio will be same then what will be result
wakeup call for our nation
guys if we dont start to move then it will be too late what our security ageineces are doing
well no doubt china has upper hands but we have to make our best effort to change the things
DRDO what these guys are doing is any one in my country can give me answer
why ??/
as an indian nation security is fisrt and most important then rest thing govt should know that thing else door is open for them
Yes, it is more like a PR campaign, but for what reason the authority launched this campaign remains unknown.
引用nimo_cn：
使得，他看起来更像是一场公关活动，但当局发起这次活动的原因仍然未知。
PR campaigns are meant to show off capability, nothing else. Without it flying it is a failure in PR. Remember my first post in this thread. I said I will comment on the J-20 only after I see its first flight. All military observers want to see a flying prototype to believe in capability.
First flight having been carried out is a possibility, a near 100% possibility. But the fact remains, if you were Russia then just showing the prototype would have been enough to suggest it can fly because of their history with aircraft development which has been proven many times. But China does not even have its own engine on legacy fighters like the J-10 and JF-17. So a static mock up wouldn't be scary at all.
This a either an unintentional leak, or something went wrong for the first flight not to have happened in front of the world eyes. Right now we can extrapolate that it is not an unintentional leak because even CCP did a coverage on it, but we can say that something went wrong because the first flight hasn't happened for so long since the leak. It could be an internal or an external anomaly and time will reveal that.
Something you should understand is that CCP doesn't have to prove anything to the Chinese people, so the authority is under no pressure to disclose every detail of the J20 project. Neither it is a race between J20 and T50, CCP won't be that childish to show pictures of J20's flight tests(if these was any) just because Russia published pictures of a flying T50.
CCP has nothing to prove to the Chinese people. This leak is meant for the so called major powers to gawk at. It is meant to prove China to the world. This is indeed a race between Russia, China and US(F-35) to get a fifth gen aircraft flying ASAP. That's a huge PR boost.
This is also the reason why I am speculating the authority has finished the maiden flight test before letting the public know its existence. CCP can't bear the risk of failing the first flight before the public.
If the J-20 has already had its first flight then they would have shown it flying by now.
I guess the plane can not fly right now. The reason why Chinese leak it so early is, they want to show something before the US defense secretary visits China and the Chinese president visits US.
Anyway, it is not big deal. To defeat China, the only thing that India needs to do is, to sell advanced Indian weapons, such as LCA/ALH/submarine to Taiwan.
It is quite clear from the video it is no fighter. It is longer than an F-111 tactical bomber. The large canards reduce stealth and cause huge drag. If it is using a pair of WS-10s it is way underpowered for its size and can forget about supercruise. If this thing turns on its PESA radar it will be dead meat. This isn't a fighter at all, it is more in line with an F-117 stealth bomber.
It is quite clear from the video it is no fighter. It is longer than an F-111 tactical bomber. The large canards reduce stealth and cause huge drag. If it is using a pair of WS-10s it is way underpowered for its size and can forget about supercruise. If this thing turns on its PESA radar it will be dead meat. This isn't a fighter at all, it is more in line with an F-117 stealth bomber.
don't you think WS10 is still a junk?
你不是还认为WS10就是个垃圾么？
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Armand2REP
Originally Posted by badguy2000
don't you think WS10 is still a junk?
Sure, that is why it is fielding AL-31s.
是啊，所以J20用的是AL-31S。
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badguy2000
Originally Posted by Armand2REP
Sure, that is why it is fielding AL-31s.
People always experience Five stages when they know they have got some incurable disease.....that is :
now, obviously you are on the stage of "bargaining".
The only incurable disease I have is this Canton Cough. You still bargaining with Russia for engines apparently. lol
我所患的唯一绝症就是这个“广东咳嗽”。而你们显然还在为发动机和俄罗斯讨价还价。笑死我了。
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cir
Full Member
Tomorrow(11.1.2011 Beijing Time) is the day, weather permitting.
明天就收费了，天气条件允许。
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badguy2000
he he, Guy, PLS remember his face.....never trust his words any more..
the guy is PLAN rear admiral Zhang Zhaozhong, PLA's actual throat on public medias like CCTV.
呵呵，同志们，记住这个人，永远不要再相信他的话了。
这人是中国海军少将张召忠，解放军在诸如CCTV等媒体上的实际发言人。
The guy assertively denied the existence of Chinese 5G bird project in one intervew of CCTV last year,after one PLAAF marshal leaked that " Chinese 5G bird would enter into service in about 7-8 years."
They are silver white nozzles, means domestic engine WS-10G, 155KNs (15816 kg).
引用：
他们是银白色的喷嘴，表明这是国产发动机WS-10G，15816公斤推力。
I would say they are the Flexible Petals on a Al-31. But I would still like to give the benefit of the doubt to the J-20 team. It would be a remarkable achievement if the WS-10G has been successfully tested. Good show on the first flight.
I would say they are the Flexible Petals on a Al-31. But I would still like to give the benefit of the doubt to the J-20 team. It would be a remarkable achievement if the WS-10G has been successfully tested. Good show on the first flight.
well, perhaps that is just you wish.
in fact, I seriouly suspect that the real "maiden flight" had been finished with russian engines before the public show.
This time, the white nozzle engines are obvioulsy domestic engines.
实际上，我深深怀疑真正的首飞已经在此次的公众演出前，用俄罗斯引擎完成了。
这次，这个白色喷嘴的引擎显然是国产的。
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Armand2REP
Originally Posted by black eagle
So it did fly.... Here is the clear video showing take off & landing...
That guy is idiot, his nickname is Chang al-Sahaf named after Saddam's information minister. During the gulf war II he made lots of fearless predictions on national TV that Saddam's army would fight the Americans to the last man.
But then again i tend to think that underneath J20 probably has more in common with J10 than anything else.
That guy is idiot, his nickname is Chang al-Sahaf named after Saddam's information minister. During the gulf war II he made lots of fearless predictions on national TV that Saddam's army would fight the Americans to the last man.
But then again i tend to think that underneath J20 probably has more in common with J10 than anything else.
well, the guy in fact is a wise man who pretend to be a idiot.
after all, not everyone can pretend to be Sahaf.
我倒觉得那家伙非常聪明，他只是装的像个傻X。
毕竟，没有人能够扮演萨哈夫。
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sayareakd
good pics thanks BG
图不错，谢谢BG了。
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Minghegy
Imagine four J20 fighters carrying sixteen medium-range ramjet air-to-air missiles which can fly at a speed of Mach 5 or 6, that's the image of future fighters. Is it possible to call it 5.5G fighter?
Imagine four J20 fighters carrying sixteen medium-range ramjet air-to-air missiles which can fly at a speed of Mach 5 or 6, that's the image of future fighters. Is it possible to call it 5.5G fighter?
how about 5.5++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++. ......+++++ +++ (few more)
it is development, let it complete first.
超超超超（省略N字）5代半你看怎么样？
它还在研发中，先弄出来再说。
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Tshering22
Join Date:Aug 2010
Location:Gangtok and New Delhi, India
Posts:1,141
Let's see.... that J-20 or whatever it is called isn't going to be showing up in an auto exhibition where IAF officials get to touch, feel, and hence analyze the machine, especially when we are taking Chinese into context who are more apt at hiding everything rather than showing something at all. There have been pictures and all everywhere now that j-20 has made the flight but hey, what engine are they using for maiden flight? They claim that WS-10 is a big success but still order more AL-31F engines from Saturn plant in Russia recently. What's that for? So if they're not successful in making an engine with sufficient thrust for their previous gen jet then how is it that J-20 which is HUGE by the pics, going to be flown with any engine other than AL-41 (an upgrade to the SU-30 engine) at all?
Taxi trials are different than actually flying the jet.
So let them do what they have to do and let us Indians focus on what we have to do: get Tejas series, MRCA, FGFA and AMCA up in the goddamn air ASAP. Again, we spend way too much time thinking what others are doing rather than what we should do in response, hence causing too much delay. This is about us forumers who are more concerned about the country.
The government doesn't even think half as us but busy swindling this country. LOL
DavidD Post subject: Re: China Military WatchPosted: 11 Jan 2011 09:54
The plane's in the air!
飞机升空了
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shiv Post subject: Re: China Military WatchPosted: 11 Jan 2011 10:08
引用：
It didn't seem to use afterburner for take off. It's now circling the airfield
看起来没开加力就起飞了。现在飞机绕机场盘旋。
Well done. In fact when I was critical of that video - it was because I could not see any after burner. But that is only a curiosity. Afterburner is not needed for flight or take off anyway.
Need to se photos and videos or I will say you Chinese are lying!
indranilroy Post subject: Re: China Military WatchPosted: 11 Jan 2011 10:23
That is amazing ... the president flies in twice to see the first flight ... they put up firecrackers after first flight ... quite unprecedented I must say .
Sid Post subject: Re: China Military WatchPosted: 11 Jan 2011 10:37
BRFite
Joined: 19 Mar 2006 13:26
Posts: 297 Second fotu
*too late. already posted*
third fotu. its damn wide as compared to slim trim J10. Its internal weapon payload must be off the roof.
来迟了，有人抢先发图了
第三张图，比起J10来说真TM宽啊，它的内部弹仓载弹量必定顶天了……
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Marten Post subject: Re: China Military WatchPosted: 11 Jan 2011 11:24
Location: Supporting Free Tibet 【注意这里，他自称来自于：支持西藏自由】
Congratulations to all Chingos on BRF. Good luck and wishes to all test pilots.
<snipe>DavidD, I took a flight from the airport to the hotel today. ooops, it was just a taxi.</snipe>
恭喜论坛里所有的清国人了。祝所有试飞员好运。
另外，DavidD，我今天刚从机场“飞”到了酒店。喔，只是出租车而已。
【chingos是翻译成清国人么？求解。DavidD是发图的中国人，和这个Marten有过争论。】
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Top
Singha Post subject: Re: China Military WatchPosted: 11 Jan 2011 12:09
BRF Oldie
the ungainly undercarriage door is the only sore spot in looks dept...else it looks nice black and menacing like a SR71 blackbirds brother of sorts.
丑陋的起落架舱门是外观上仅有的瑕疵……此外，这黑色真帅，邪恶有如SR71，黑鸟家族兄弟
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Philip Post subject: Re: China Military WatchPosted: 11 Jan 2011 12:42
One must take one's hat off to the PRC and its single-mindedness of purpose.While we have just cleared our LCA of 4th-gen cpability-that too which will only get final clearance in service in 2013,China has tested its 5th-gen stealth fighter for the first time.We are at least a decade behind the PRC in terms of designing and building one's own aircraft,but are trying hard to close the gap/leapfrogging into the rarified atmosphere of stealth with the JV with Russia for the 5th-gen fighter,already being tested.This should enable us to put into service our 5th-gen stealth fighter first,followed in due course by the AMCA,ambitions which now seems to parallel the US's approach which has two stealth fighters for the future,the F-22 Raptor and the JSF.
The main challenge for the IAF will be the rapid induction of new PRC fighters into the PAF,as China can build aircraft far faster than we can-the LCA's production being only "10 a year",as mentioned officially yesterday.
Post subject: Re: China Military WatchPosted: 11 Jan 2011 13:09
I doubt Pakistan can afford the J-20!
Also, in the pics wrdos posted, it seems like the plane flew with domestic engines.
我怀疑巴基斯坦是否负担得起J-20
此外，从照片上看，貌似装的是国产发动机。
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indranilroy
Post subject: Re: China Military WatchPosted: 11 Jan 2011 13:12
引用
Philip wrote:
One must take one's hat off to the PRC and its single-mindedness of purpose.While we have just cleared our LCA of 4th-gen cpability-that too which will only get final clearance in service in 2013,China has tested its 5th-gen stealth fighter for the first time.We are at least a decade behind the PRC in terms of designing and building one's own aircraft,but are trying hard to close the gap/leapfrogging into the rarified atmosphere of stealth with the JV with Russia for the 5th-gen fighter,already being tested.This should enable us to put into service our 5th-gen stealth fighter first,followed in due course by the AMCA,ambitions which now seems to parallel the US's approach which has two stealth fighters for the future,the F-22 Raptor and the JSF.
The main challenge for the IAF will be the rapid induction of new PRC fighters into the PAF,as China can build aircraft far faster than we can-the LCA's production being only "10 a year",as mentioned officially yesterday.
Since you forgot to mention, I shall mention it. The officials said that they will be producing at "10 a year". This can be increased "considerably" if desired.
鉴于你忘了提到，我必须说明一下，官方说生产率是一年10架，但如果需要这个速度可以“大幅”加快。
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Kanson
Post subject: Re: China Military WatchPosted: 11 Jan 2011 13:13
Well its very nice to see the very well orchestrated J-20 introduction and its first flight. Goes into the aviation history as remember-able moment for more than one reason. Shows the Chinese persistence whether in exploding the nuclear bomb or the first flight of Stealth fighter to reach that status of one among of the firsts. Kudos!
Post subject: Re: China Military WatchPosted: 11 Jan 2011 13:44
If "watchers" were allowed,then it means that the aircraft has already been flight tested and this flight was well rehearsed,meant to "concide" with Gates' meeting with the PRC mandarins.The report below pours some cold water on the PRC achievemnent,but perhaps like many who have pooh-pooed China's "achievements",these may be famous last words too!
Post subject: Re: China Military WatchPosted: 11 Jan 2011 13:46
引用：
Philip wrote:
One must take one's hat off to the PRC and its single-mindedness of purpose.While we have just cleared our LCA of 4th-gen cpability-that too which will only get final clearance in service in 2013,China has tested its 5th-gen stealth fighter for the first time.We are at least a decade behind the PRC in terms of designing and building one's own aircraft,but are trying hard to close the gap/leapfrogging into the rarified atmosphere of stealth with the JV with Russia for the 5th-gen fighter,already being tested.This should enable us to put into service our 5th-gen stealth fighter first,followed in due course by the AMCA,ambitions which now seems to parallel the US's approach which has two stealth fighters for the future,the F-22 Raptor and the JSF.
The main challenge for the IAF will be the rapid induction of new PRC fighters into the PAF,as China can build aircraft far faster than we can-the LCA's production being only "10 a year",as mentioned officially yesterday.
Philip., the AMCA is not designed to be a stealth plane according to official info, livefist had a detailed article on it.But it should be., i dont think the official view has come around to it till now.Maybe the J20 will change the AMCA design charecteristics ?! .. lets wait and see.
Post subject: Re: China Military WatchPosted: 11 Jan 2011 14:01
David ,I agree with you.How can he evaluate PLAF maintenance capability? What about weaponry? The PRC have made huge strides in missile tech from AWST and other western media reports,plus,the PLAF will soon have several of its own AWACS/AEW aircraft flying.To my mind,the PRC plans to overwhelm its opposition anywhere through superior numbers,in the air,on the ground and on and under the sea.Numbers DO matter and superior weapon systems by a PRC opponent cannot be everywhere at the same time.We've already had studies showing how vastly superior numbers of PLAF Flankers can neutralise USAF F-22s operating out of Guam in ops closer to the PRC coastline/Taiwan.Adding J-20s to its large numbers of Flankers will only complicate the US's task even more.
1) J-20 takeoff without afterburner as David pointed out
2) The ailerons can be seen working.
3) The two seat J-10 (not J-20) is in the air 12 seconds after the burner lights up.
我的看法
1.j-20起飞不用开加力，正如David所说
2.副翼可以看出来在动作
3.双座的j-10在启动后12秒升空
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Christopher Sidor Post subject: Re: China Military WatchPosted: 11 Jan 2011 16:59
Does India have the capability of detecting this 5th generation fighter of PLAAF once it starts flying over Tibet and/or attempts to enter our airspace in north east or north western Himalayas?
当解放军空军的5代机飞临西藏或者试图进入我们东北部、西喜马拉雅的领空时，印度有能力探测到吗？
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geeth Post subject: Re: China Military WatchPosted: 11 Jan 2011 17:32
I never knew it is that simple to make a stealth plane! How come the Russians with their vast experience were labouring for so long..?
我从不知道，原来搞隐形战机那容易啊！那为什么俄国人有着丰富的经验却要折腾那么久？
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johnny_m Post subject: Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011Posted: 11 Jan 2011 20:42
No weapon bays meaning there is some serious work to be done on that. I am with Philip we need to focus on the FGFA as of now and increase production capability at HAL.
The plane is just too big for PAF to even consider it.
johnny_m Post subject: Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011Posted: 11 Jan 2011 21:26
引用
Quote:
Johnny_m - T-50 is already flying!! Why do you think that India signed up for PAK-FA?
T-50已经飞过了！你觉得印度为何签约买PAK-FA？
Yes but we are not getting the Vanila T 50 the FGFA will only fly in 2017 and we are looking at 2020s for Induction. China can make Planes at a faster rate than both India and Russia, HAL will have its hands full with MRCA, LCA MK2 and a host of other programmes, serious measures are to be taken to increase rate of production as well as giving more emphasis to FGFA, Russians almost never deliver on time unless pushed hard.
Singha Post subject: China Military WatchPosted: 11 Jan 2011 21:50
there is probably room for a smallish internal bay with 4-6 AAMs (the F22 carries 6). the closely spaced engines rule out a second tandem bay.
I am sure stealth weapons station could be developed for the innermost pylon of CFT area for smaller wvr weapons or maybe change the game and carry big aams there too.
Vivek K Post subject: Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011Posted: 11 Jan 2011 22:08
Johnny_m - I'm sure that the J-20 development is what made GOI (generally takes decades to buy one aircraft) decide quickly on the PAK-FA. Please do not forget that by 2017 there will be LCAs, MMRCAs (125 - 200), upgraded M2k, upgraded Mig-29s, plus Jaguars and of course the MKI (270+). So India will not be defenceless at the time. These will be supported by 5 Phalcon AWACs and the indegenous AEWC plus Akash batteries for AD.
Cain Marko Post subject: Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011Posted: 11 Jan 2011 23:52
BRFite
引用 Vivek K wrote:
Johnny_m - I'm sure that the J-20 development is what made GOI (generally takes decades to buy one aircraft) decide quickly on the PAK-FA. Please do not forget that by 2017 there will be LCAs, MMRCAs (125 - 200), upgraded M2k, upgraded Mig-29s, plus Jaguars and of course the MKI (270+). So India will not be defenceless at the time. These will be supported by 5 Phalcon AWACs and the indegenous AEWC plus Akash batteries for AD.
125-200 MRCA? Good lord man, they are not even close to a downselect yet. Expect only 20 odd nos by 2017 optimistically (if they sign by 2012). Has the M2k deal been signed off on yet - there is another impasse iirc? IAF should have 40-60 LCA, 270 MKI, 60 Fulcrums SMTs, and about 20 MMRCA, 100 Bisons, and possibly 200 Jag+Floggers. About 450 BVR capable multirole fighters, 200 pure strike a/c if all goes as planned
I am hoping that this J20 causes a LOT of dhoti shivering - and the pace of procurement is ramped up considerably. My guess is that if they find the J20 maturing quickly (which is quite likely since the chinese don't show anything unless they are sure it is somewhat mature ala J10), the IAF will land up buying a few PAKFAs (not FGFAs) ad hoc ala T90s, and I wouldn't blame them. Perhaps the MKI MLU will start earlier as well.
Further, the legacy birds (teens, fulcrum) and even Gripen may as well kiss the MRCA goodbye. Rafale vs. Typhoon - a treat for BR jingoes should be on offer.
此外，传统战机（F-18、MIG29）以及鹰狮都要和MRCA计划吻别。阵风 VS 台风—英帝国沙文主义的威胁，应该被采购。
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Vivek K Post subject: Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011Posted: 12 Jan 2011 00:12
引用：Cain Marko wrote:
125-200 MRCA? Good lord man, they are not even close to a downselect yet. Expect only 20 odd nos by 2017 optimistically (if they sign by 2012).
Point taken CM. However, how many of the J-20 would be flying by then? By 2017 the 270 MKIs would be in service though! And the FGFA would also be nearing IOC by then(?).
RamaY Post subject: Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011Posted: 12 Jan 2011 01:19
引用Cain Marko wrote:
I am hoping that this J20 causes a LOT of dhoti shivering - and the pace of procurement is ramped up considerably. My guess is that if they find the J20 maturing quickly (which is quite likely since the chinese don't show anything unless they are sure it is somewhat mature ala J10), the IAF will land up buying a few PAKFAs (not FGFAs) ad hoc ala T90s, and I wouldn't blame them. Perhaps the MKI MLU will start earlier as well.
The sad part is that people were sitting on their bottoms during demand-rules period and will now pay dearly for their laziness as the suppliers demand inflated prices to accommodate the demand schedules.
SaiK Post subject: Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011Posted: 12 Jan 2011 02:24
Finally, one may feel a little ease that PAK-FA will not be chinese interest since they have their own fighter. Perhaps a saturn engine is the only one. They have long way to go, in the sense, AESA radar, passive sensors, and so many 5th gen aspects, just the shaping alone doesnt get there.
BTW, if pakis acquire about 100 odd J20s by 2020, we should be good with FGFA is what I read from other poster who wanted us to react to this. Rather react, I would say proactively, ddm shud support local programs and not condemn it.
like it or not, ddm will "REACT".. and the more once pakis start dancing.
Post subject: Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011Posted: 12 Jan 2011 06:20
I think the mistake that is made about Chinese capabilities by many people who use the lay media as a source of information (such as us) is that we are colored by western opinions. We cheerfully quote Carlo Copp or Bill Sweetman and other "experts" whose views may have little relevance to India. And those people are always talking from the viewpoint of their own nations and we have no business taking their views as seriously relevant for us.
Mons Veneris，我觉得我们对中国能力的误读来源于某些人，他们的信息来源就是缺乏专业知识的媒体（比如说我们的），我们都被西方的观点左右。我们乐意引用Carlo Copp 或者 Bill Sweetman式的专家评论，其实他们的评论和印度没什么关系。这些人都是从他们自己国家的视角出发谈问题，我们用不着太看重他们的观点。
China being "a little faster than expected" or "several decades behind" is a western viewpoint.
中国“比想象的快了一点”或者“落后几十年”都是西方的观点。
I don't think anyone who seriously follows Indian science and tech has any illusions about China - although a bit of fun at China expense is always necessary for an internet forum. Unfortunately - while following western media we do tend to dhoti shiver when the western commentator dhoti-shivers (or soot-boot-shivers) and we tend to go "Yay" when gora aadmi says "OK no problem". Gora aadmi often makes bullshit assessments about others.
China has built a black painted futuristic looking aircraft and flown it once. That puts China ahead of every country on earth that has never designed and flown any aircraft and indicates an active design bureau and science establishment where people are given the freedom to work and protected from criticism the way the LCA team was protected from external and home grown contempt. If the system works it will produce some results.
But in high tech the race is even longer. My ballpark estimate of the number of flying airliners in the world today may be 20 or 30,000. 95% of the engines are sourced from a handful of western companies. The reliability and efficiency of those engines is noteworthy with some models having notched up tens of millions of hours of failure free flight. This is not an easy record for anyone to match. But one must start somewhere. The problem with starting late is that you will be behind for years. If you create a reliable design X - it will take you some years to prove it, and some more years after that to modify it to become lighter and more fuel efficient. Incremental improvements like this have been done on western engines for decades now resulting in a situation where the newest engines from the west are lighter and more fuel efficient than they used to be. That means aircraft can fly further with less fuel and higher payloads. This means that a "stealth aircraft" from the west with such an efficient engine will have those advantages and western observers will always look at Chinese designs (or future Indian designs) and say "nyahaha - they are 20 years behind" and the Ajai Shuklas of this world will always curse fellow Indians for being 20 years behind. It is only ignorance that causes this.
You can be sure that a Chinese engine may not have all these refinements - but it will do the job. It is easy to forget that the USSR caused soot-boot shivering in the west by using stainless steel (MiG 25) and engines that needed replacements after 100 hours of use. Even on this forum we have mocked our own Russian derived aircraft for having an airframe life of 1000 hours while equivalent Western aircraft are touted to have 3000 hours. This is basically Macaulay speaking. We have a lot of that.
Ultimately progress is about respecting what your own people do. Technology is never easy and there are always choices and compromises to be made. if country X takes one road or makes a particular choice it does not mean that your own people are morons for not taking that road or making that choice. By all means respect the Chinese for their achievements, and of course do not use western derived examples to show that they are useless. But at the same time there is absolutely no need to beat one's breasts and imagine that nothing is happening in India. We know where we need to go and will take our own route to get there using what we have.
The comments I've read so far illustrate how ignorant Indians are about external affairs and many pretend to know everything.
我到目前为止，读到的评论都说明印度人对于外界的情势是多么的无知，许多人还装作什么都知道。
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banda (mumbai)
1 hr ago (11:42 AM)
Chinese make. Treat it with a lot of caution. The world knows the quality of Chinese products." Buy one, buy another one". is what people say about Chinese products. Now with China into manufacture of fighter planes, they will surely have to train a lot of pilots for replacement of the lost ones.
Dear America, There is a old saying-"Feeding and grooming the Snake". The snake will not distinguish between good & bad. It will bite any one coming its way. You have fed & groomed a Dragon.
亲爱的美国，有句古话叫“养蛇为患”。蛇可不会区分好坏。它会咬伤前行途中的任何人。你们则是养了条龙。
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Rage (Washington) replies to Jagadish Baliga
1 hr ago (11:53 AM)
Do you know the founder of NASA's JPL (the birth place of rocket) was a Chinese, who later became China's head of rocket program. The first ever plane at Boeing was designed by a Chinese young man out of MIT ? It seems like the Chinese fed the Americans quite a bit too.
In a funk? - hardly. Another arms race is unnecessary, especially over a plane whose capabilities are untested. India is more likely to find its air space tested by the J-20 in the near future. The good ole USA will be there to watch your back - funk and all.
Well said, the Indian indigenous designed T-50 will be there to counter the Chinese J-20. Even Russia will have to buy T-50 and other high tech items from India.
radar cannot detect j-20, that is the speciality of J-20
回To Mantis：
雷达无法侦测到J20，这就是J20的特别之处。
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Troll (India) replies to To Mantis
1 hr ago (11:43 AM)
Sure sure, considering the overtime and overcost on the LCA, I am pretty sure the T-50 will probably cost huge in comparison to J-20. Further, by the time we are ready to test it, the chinese would have probably moved on to J-2000 :)) Good luck anyways!!
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